Ep 55 | MENTAL HEALTH ADVOCATE EXTRAORDINAIRE: EMILY GROSSMAN

Episode Summary

Emily Grossman, an incredible human being, is with us in this new episode of the HINESIGHTS Podcast! 

Emily has vast experience in mental health and she is here to share a lot of things with us! Not only as a counselor but as a patient herself, Emily reflects and expands what her journey with mental health has been from a very young age. She started her recovery with a type of treatment called dialectical behavior therapy, mostly known as DBT. Emily talks a lot about recovery, and she explains why and how important it is to acknowledge the process. She wants to make a difference in the world and the chance of being a peer support counselor gave her that. Dealing with mental illness isn’t a burned brand on your forehead, it can open a lot of doors in life. 

Tune in and listen to her incredible journey! 

About the Guest - Emily Grossman

Emily Grossman is a peer specialist, trainer, consultant, and writer. In 2018, Emily was named "Peer Specialist of The Year" by the National Council for Behavioral Health. 

In addition to this work, she is the director of the Training Institute at Coordinated Behavioral Care, Inc, a mental health non-profit in NYC.  Before this, Emily worked for The Jewish Board as an Organizational Development Specialist with a focus on Recovery and the Peer Workforce. In this role, Emily trains the agency’s 3,000 employees, including psychiatrists, therapists, peer specialists, and other practitioners about how to implement recovery-oriented care in their work. She also has developed and facilitated a highly successful Peer Training Program at her agency.

Additionally, Emily coaches adults and young adults with behavioral health struggles and helps to inspire them by sharing her own experience and giving them hope that recovery is possible for them, too.

Emily is a frequent speaker about mental health recovery throughout the country.  She has presented at such venues as Columbia University, NYU, Rutgers University, and Mental Health America’s National Conference, to name a few.

Key Take-Aways

  • Some diagnosed conditions may come from unexpected panic or anxiety attacks. 

  • The world has come to understand what mental health really conveys.

  • People aren’t comfortable thinking about mental illness and recovery. 

  • Peer providers are those that have lived experience of mental illness and mental health recovery and are trained to help others recover. 

  • The more people learn how to manage their emotions, the better the world becomes. 

  • Recovery is a process, it has ups and downs, but the trend is always up. 

Resources

EP 55_Hinesights Podcast_Emily Grossman: Audio automatically transcribed by Sonix

EP 55_Hinesights Podcast_Emily Grossman: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Kevin Hines:
My name is Kevin Hines. I jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge. I believe that I had to die, but I lived. Today, I travel the world with my lovely wife, Margaret, sharing stories of people who have triumphed over incredible adversity. Now, we help people be here tomorrow. Welcome to the HINESIGHTS podcast.

Kevin Hines:
What is cracking, Hope Nation? Once again, it's your friendly neighborhood, Kevin Hines, and I'm back for another HINESIGHTS podcast with all of you. My guest on today's HINESIGHTS podcast is the one and only amazing, Emily Grossman, who does amazing work at Coordinated Behavioral health Care. Now, for those of you who don't know, it's an agency that has a membership of 50 community behavioral health organizations across New York City and provides training for all types of practitioners from social workers, psychiatrists, case managers, and peer support workers. Emily has also a lived experience of surviving a suicide attempt, and now she shares her story to help destigmatize mental illness and mental issues, and she speaks of how she overcame her hardest times and avoiding being institutionalized. Emily was also awarded in 2018 the Peer Specialist Award at the National Council for Behavioral Health Care, currently National Council for Mental Wellbeing. This was the same conference that I had the pleasure of briefly meeting here, and without any further ado, please welcome to the HINESIGHTS podcast, miss Emily Grossman. Emily, how are you doing today?

Emily Grossman:
Hey, Kevin, it's so, so great to be here, I'm so honored to be a part of this today, and I do want to say before we get started, I really want to thank you for the incredible advocacy and work that you do and your foundation, and it's, it's incredible and we're so lucky to have you.

Kevin Hines:
Thank you, Emily. That means a lot, I really appreciate that. Well, we're going to get right into it, I have a lot of questions for you. I want to give all answers to the best of our ability here in the short window. So first of all, let's start with this, tell us all about your recovery journey.

Emily Grossman:
Sure. So, Kevin, it started in 1996, I was a freshman at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, and I started having panic attacks, and I didn't really know what a panic attack was, but it very quickly progressed into depression. And I didn't know that much about mental health, mental illness at the time, but I was very, very alarmed, my family was very alarmed, I was having suicidal thoughts, and so eventually my parents and I decided that I should come home from school and get some treatment. And that was my first experience in a psychiatric hospital. It was my first experience really having a diagnosis, I was diagnosed eventually with bipolar disorder, and it was just a very, very scary time. I transferred and ended up at Rutgers University about a semester later, but still was a little shaky with my mental health recovery and eventually, after about two years, kind of had a breakthrough of my medication and started the cycle of hospitalization, just in and out of the hospital for mania, suicidal thoughts, depression and also psychosis, which for those who don't know, is seeing and hearing things that other people don't see and hear. And so that was very, a very, very difficult time, I was in and out of the hospital 12 times and somehow graduated college, but was still in and out of the hospital. And the final hospitalization was one in which they were considering institutionalizing me because I was not functioning well in the outside world. And that was a very, very scary experience, but I think it also was a wake-up call to me. I just decided to double down, I was, I got out of that placement, but just by the skin of my teeth, and I decided to double down on my treatment and found a kind of therapy called dialectical behavior therapy, which a lot of people have heard about now, it's DBT, it's the acronym. And I like to explain DBT as really a way to manage difficult relationships and manage intense emotions. And they teach it like it's a class and they teach you coping strategies, you do homework, and I really got into it and started my recovery journey that way. And soon thereafter, I went to graduate school, and that's where I found, I began to find my life purpose and my mission in life. And so between graduate school and also, I found a spiritual practice that involves meditation and that meditation, boy Kevin, that is a real game-changer. So between those two things finding a life purpose as an educator and a teacher and also therapy and medication, my recovery started to happen.

Kevin Hines:
That's phenomenal. It's great to hear when recovery starts to begin. Well, let's, let's then, just with you any on that, now this next question is perfect, you talk about the word recovery a lot.

Emily Grossman:
Yeah.

Kevin Hines:
What does it mean to you? And does it mean that you're completely stable now?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah. So, you know, Kevin, I get this question all the time. You know, people are not comfortable thinking of mental illness and then thinking of recovery. I've heard a lot of people say to me, does it just mean, like you said, that you're stable? Does it mean that you are, you know, is it like recovery in a 12-step program for addiction, where all of a sudden you are recovered because of the 12 steps? And I, recovery to me is that if you were to do a scan of my brain right now, you would see a different brain than the brain that I had when I was experiencing bipolar symptoms. I don't have the deep depressions anymore, I don't have the high highs anymore, and I have not experienced psychosis, and none of this has happened in my life for the past decade. So to me, that's what recovery looks like, and I want to be honest that we all have life's ups and downs, we all have good days and bad days, and I'm, I of course, experienced good days and bad days. Have you been experiencing intense anxiety? But not to the point that I was experiencing back then. And I think that's important for people to really know that recovery like that can happen.

Kevin Hines:
Possible. And you know, for me, you know, I live with a diagnosis like you, a bipolar one with psychotic features, so psychosis, seeing, hearing things that nobody else can see or hear. I consider myself in recovery every day. That's all it is.

Emily Grossman:
Yeah.

Kevin Hines:
I'm in recovery every day, I still have all the symptoms I've ever had, but they're mild, they're not overwhelming, they don't, they don't destroy my, my day or my life. I live with them, but I survived them, and I think that makes a lot of sense. Tell me about peer providers. What is it peer provider and how do they help? I want to know all about it.

Emily Grossman:
Yeah. So peer providers are people that have lived experience of mental illness and mental health recovery and are trained to help other people to recover, Kevin. So it's really, there's, it's a real job, I get asked this all the time. Is it a real job? Yes. So I got into mental health as a provider, as a peer provider. And essentially what I started to do was I was trained by Consumer Connections, which is a mental health association in New Jersey program, but every state has their own kind of training program for this, and I got trained to provide mental health care to clients that are struggling with their mental health. So in the beginning, I was running groups, I was doing individual support, helping people find jobs, helping people go back to school or work, you know, all kinds of different ways that I supported them and I used my own journey to really provide that hope. So I feel like I could give just empathy, not just sympathy, because I had been there, you know? And I think that that is a really important part of what peer support is all about.

Kevin Hines:
Totally. I couldn't agree with you more. I love the work that peer providers do around the country, love the work you're doing, it's amazing and you're helping a lot of folks. If you had one message, one, you could only choose one message for people who struggle with behavioral challenges, what would that message be? Obviously, you have many, but what would that one message be about?

Emily Grossman:
Oh, it's hard to narrow it down.

Kevin Hines:
... narrow it down, isn't it? Yeah.

Emily Grossman:
It is so hard to know. I think.

Kevin Hines:
If you've got a couple, go for it, I want to hear what you have to say.

Emily Grossman:
OK, OK. I have a few here. So I think the big one is that mental illness does not have to be the kind of thing that it's like you have a stamp on your forehead, for the rest of your life you have to suffer, it's not like that. Actually, for me, my recovery and my journey with mental illness and bipolar has been my biggest blessing because it led me on a journey to find my higher self and my, and a better version of myself. And, you know, it led me on a spiritual path, and that's not for everyone, but it just gave me the tools and skills to manage my intense emotions, and that was something that was really lacking for me. But I think, Kevin, it's lacking for a lot of people, and I really believe that the more people learn how to manage their intense emotions, the better the world becomes, you know? So I really believe that mental illness can be actually a springboard to one's higher self and better self, so that's one of my messages. I think the other one is not to get discouraged if when you're walking the road towards recovery, you have setbacks because I like to think of recovery as like kind of like the stock market graph when things are going well, you know, it kind of goes up and it dips a little and goes up and, and dips, but the trend is still up. And so I really think of a recovery journey like that, too. We may take a few steps forward and a few steps back, but really that trend is up and not to lose hope.

Kevin Hines:
I love it.

Emily Grossman:
So, yeah, so those are some of my messages.

Kevin Hines:
I couldn't have put it better myself, that was fantastic. Tell me about, and I kind of know the gist of it based on your story, but I want to know a little bit deeper into what really got you in to peer support work? Was it the lived experience you had? Was that you just wanted to help people? What was the crux for you going into this work and then sticking with it all these years?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah. So I got into it because I always, you know, even, Kevin, when I was about to be institutionalized, I had this drive that I always wanted to make a difference in the world. I just never knew how and part of being institutionalized for me, or the possibility of it, was that the doors would close and I wasn't going to be able to make a difference in the world like I wanted to. And so when I found peer support, I finally found my way of making a difference in the world. It was to really support others who had been through a similar challenge to what I had been through, and it gave it a purpose and it gave my life a purpose and meaning that I hadn't had before. And so, you know, it was, it's, peer support is powerful work, I grow as much from, I now have a private peer practice and I grow as much from the people I help as I think they grow from working with me. It definitely gives as much to me as I think or hope it gets to them. So that's a little bit about what got me into the work and what keeps me in the work.

Kevin Hines:
Perfect. You know, you dedicated your life to this, and it's pretty phenomenal to see it and to, I just want to tell you from one, from one peer to another, I appreciate you.

Emily Grossman:
Aww, I got you, Kevin.

Kevin Hines:
What are your key self-care activities that you do to keep yourself well and in recovery every day?

Emily Grossman:
Kevin, I think that's such an important question. So I have, like I said earlier, I have a meditation practice, so typically I try to start my day early, I try to start my day and that means I go to bed early the night before, so I start my day early enough, the ideal time is six o'clock, although sometimes it doesn't quite go as planned, but ideally six o'clock, I wake up, I meditate, and the type of meditation I do is a verbal chanting. There's so many different types of meditation, but my mind was very busy, so I needed to say something out loud to focus myself. So that's what I do. And then I exercise, and while I'm exercising, I try to listen to something uplifting, something inspiring, something maybe spiritual, maybe not, maybe listening to Kevin Hines, to get me all excited about recovery, but whatever it is, I do that while I'm walking, listening to podcasts, etcetera, and then I come home and get ready for my day, but one of the most important things that I do is, when I'm getting ready for my day, is I ask for my higher self, my higher power, whatever people believe in, to channel through me, to help me, to be the best self that I can be to help me make a difference for people. So I think that connection is super important for me. And then, Kevin, other things I do for self-care are things like, you know, I work from home right now, but I make sure I get dressed up every day anyway, because if I'm sitting in my pajamas all day, it doesn't feel as good, you know, and another important thing is connecting to other people that I love. I really find that I'm an extrovert. I need that connection, so I make sure that I check in with my loved ones on a regular basis. So and then also eating healthy. I have struggled in my life with binge eating disorder as well, and I'm fortunate to be in a 12-step program for that, and so I follow a food plan every day and that keeps me honest, it keeps me healthy, and I'm really, really grateful about that. So those are some of the strategies.

Kevin Hines:
Those are great steps to wellness really for anyone going through the things that you've dealt with really appreciate that because our listeners and our watchers will hear that and see that, and then they'll go and they'll enact it into their daily lives and they'll change their lives. So whereas you get that inspiration from other people, they're going to get that inspiration from you today, and that's awesome.

Emily Grossman:
Aww, thank you!

Kevin Hines:
You've shared publicly and quite bravely that you are a suicide attempt survivor. Can you please put us through the moment you chose life or you found.

Emily Grossman:
Oh boy, that's an incredible question, Kevin, you know? I think it was a series of moments in which I chose life. I think that, obviously, the moment when I called someone and asked for help was an important part of the journey. But I think I, and that was, you know, I just really made a decision that I, like I said, like with the institutionalization, I did not want to leave this life without touching other lives, and I really believe that I had a mission to do that, even though I didn't know how, you know? And so that was a very important part of choosing life for me. Another part of choosing life for me was really knowing that I am blessed to have the support of family and friends that I have, and I didn't want to leave them and I didn't want them to, I didn't want to hurt them in that way. And so that was an important part of making the decision to continue to work on myself as well and to choose life. But I choose life every morning when I wake up, you know, I mean, I wake up and I am grateful that I have another day. And I think, Kevin, when so much, when you spend so much of your life in your early life in depression and struggling with mental illness, it's like every day that is a good day, that, that's a normal day rather, is a good day, you know? So I feel incredibly blessed about that.

Kevin Hines:
It sounds to me, based on this and a lot of your other answers, that you actually and this is, this is my philosophy as well, you hold gratitude inside the pain, the painful times, the painful moments, the struggling times, the hard times, the destitute times, the desperate times, the dark times. And when you do that, when you can hold gratitude inside that, you can be resilient from it and you can always survive it. And that's.

Emily Grossman:
Yes.

Kevin Hines:
That's the resilience we need to teach our youth of today, is that just because they're being bullied at school or they're having trouble at home, it doesn't mean they don't get to have that beautiful tomorrow, but they have to be here to get there in the first place, right?

Emily Grossman:
Exactly, exactly.

Kevin Hines:
Yeah, I think it's missing in some lives, the understanding that the painful times are just building blocks into your best life.

Emily Grossman:
Yes. And you know, Kevin, I, in my spiritual practice, we talk about something called poison into medicine, and I love that concept because it's this idea that our poisonous or painful situations can flip around if you hang out for long enough and be the very medicine that heals us.

Kevin Hines:
Yes!

Emily Grossman:
And that's exactly what I think I can say my journey was and, you know, a lot of our journeys when we overcome this, it's actually the very thing that drives us to become our better selves.

Kevin Hines:
Yeah, it's like, it's like the same pain into power. You know, turn your pain into your power, I need a .... It's certainly what I did, it's certainly what you did, it's certainly what a lot of these lived experience advocates have done. Triumph over in terrible adversity is really crucial, but certainly fascinating. Ok, I've got to ask you, what was it like winning the peer specialist award from the National Council for Mental Well-Being?

Emily Grossman:
You know, Kevin, it was a supreme honor, for sure. And I was incredibly, incredibly grateful. But for me, the award was more to get up there and to say to people, look on a public platform, I've done this and you can too. And when I got the award, I really dedicated it to all of the people that are still struggling, but also all of the peer providers out there that are doing this work to help others. Because, you know, it's a collection of us that are doing this. And the more people that share their stories and share their voice, the more the awful stigma around mental illness and suicidality, and all of that stuff starts to go away.

Kevin Hines:
Absolutely, so true, this one, I love this question because it's for parents. What would your advice be to parents who are supporting a child who may be going through similar things that you did?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah. You know, one of the best things. And like I said, I am blessed in the parents department, I just have wonderful parents. And one of the things that they did that I will always be so grateful for is that they always reminded me of who I was before I started to struggle and even at the worst of times, Kevin, they reminded me of who that person was, and they reminded me that that person was still in there and they held the hope that that person would return at some point, no matter how, I mean, I was struggling for almost a decade, and they just always believe that the little girl that they knew, that the young teen that they knew before this, you know, who they love so much was going to come back out again. And I really think that holding on to that hope for me is the best thing they did.

Kevin Hines:
Wow. So crucial.

Emily Grossman:
Yeah.

Kevin Hines:
What is the one thing you wish someone said or did during your greatest times of need that maybe wasn't done?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah, you know, I'll tell you one thing that was not done enough is I remember right after I made my suicide attempt, I was in the hospital and a nurse looked at me and she said, honey, this is not your fault.

Kevin Hines:
Oh.

Emily Grossman:
And I needed that message more than anything else. I didn't get it that often because of the stigma.

Kevin Hines:
Yeah.

Emily Grossman:
But that message of this is not your fault, this is not something you're creating, this is not that you're, a cry for help, it's not that you're being overly dramatic, none of that stuff, this is not your fault. You are dealing with an illness, you know. And so I think that the more we can share with people who are going through this, that there is no shame in this, that it's not their fault. You know, I think that's a very, very important thing for people to know.

Kevin Hines:
Love that, beautiful. If you can go back in time and give yourself one piece of advice, what would you say? What would it be?

Emily Grossman:
Love yourself through it all. And I know that's, that's something that we all say. But there were times, Kevin, in my life that when I was going through the worst of this, I looked at myself as damaged in some way or that there was something wrong with me. And I wish that I realized at the time that there was nothing wrong with me, I was fighting as hard as I could with, you know, I think it's one of the hardest things in the world is to fight with your own mind because there's no, your mind doesn't get on the loudspeaker and say, hello, this is your negative voice speaking, your negative self-talk, talking, and I'm going to tell you how awful and terrible you are, it comes to you in your own voice, you know? And so I just think that it's so important that we are able to discern and love ourselves through it all and discern what is our negative thinking and the illness and what's truly us and love ourselves for that, you know?

Kevin Hines:
You know, that's so important, Emily, that negative inner critical thought or thoughts, they can really destroy us, and they come from every negative, hurtful, spiteful, hateful, and mean thing that has ever been said or done to us by anybody else, we literally back brain those intense traumatic experiences. They remain in our brain forever as trauma. And then when we have a hard time later in life, they, they're triggered. And if we can find a way to look in the mirror every day and say, you're beautiful, you're wonderful, you're amazing, you're great, you're the best, I love you, you're gorgeous if you say those things every day, it's simple. What are the greatest faiths all built upon reciting a prayer, repeating your prayer, believing your prayer. Recite, repeat, belief. If you recite and repeat negative things about yourself, guess what? You'll believe them. But on the opposite side, if you recite and repeat positive things about yourself, you're going to believe those too. You can literally retrain the brain. The brain is the most malleable organ we have. You can retrain it, you can make it think positive thoughts. You can make it think positively in general with a little bit of hard work, a little bit of meditation, and a great deal of action. And I think what you're saying is really important, really crucial for everybody to know. I just want to put my two cents in there.

Emily Grossman:
No, please, thank you, Kevin, and I agree with everything you just said, you know?

Kevin Hines:
Emily, you've dedicated your life to inspiring others. I have to ask you as a person who's been there, does it ever get taxing on you doing all this work for other people? And if so, what do you do to help manage those feelings?

Emily Grossman:
No, Kevin, that's a great question, you ask great questions! So I think there is something that we study a lot mental health professionals called compassion fatigue, which is this idea that after a while of giving and hearing people's negative stories of trauma and you know, you can start to feel a little pull-down yourself.

Kevin Hines:
Yeah.

Emily Grossman:
And that's a reality. But I have to say that the amounts of times that I experience compassion fatigue versus the amount of times that I feel lifted by the work, you know, more times than not, I'm lifted, and that really helps me to compensate for the times when I'm feeling compassion fatigue, you know? But I think that when I'm struggling with that compassion fatigue, I remind myself about why I'm in the work and it's not about me. It's about a greater mission for the greater good, which is to really inspire people that, as you say, being here tomorrow is so important, you know, and also to inspire people that these illnesses do not have to mean that, that a life is over. It can mean that you are able to, as I said before, come back even stronger and better than you were before. You know, so I really am, I get so fired up by that that it, it helps to propel me when I'm feeling some of that compassion fatigue.

Kevin Hines:
Wow. Just amazing. And I get it and I feel the same way. I feel like I more feel fueled to do the work when I hear the painful stories, to double down and to do it better and to reach farther into and to dig deeper and to help people more, I think that's a great way to look at it. Let me ask you a question. What stands out for you the most when you have faced being hospitalized? What is the feeling that you experience when that's about to happen and tell me about the fear that is even associated with that?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah, so Kevin, there's a lot of, I wish hospitalization was a, I think when I first had was the first time I was hospitalized. I thought it was going to be a different experience than it was. It was a lot of trauma, it was a lot of real trauma. You know, being, first of all, when you're locked away somewhere, you automatically lose your freedom, you know, and just that whole experience is so painful and so hard. In fact, so hard and painful that in one of my hospitalizations, I started writing and I was writing about what, I was trying to create a better hospital. So I was writing if I had a vision of what a hospital should be for this, what I would want it to be, you know? And I just think that our mental health system quite honestly, has a long way to go in terms of treating people with mental illness in ways that are more humane and kinder and more loving because.

Kevin Hines:
And respectful.

Emily Grossman:
And respectful, yes.

Kevin Hines:
Yeah.

Emily Grossman:
I'm very heartened that now they have more of these crisis respite centers, at least in my area, where people can go and they're not locked up. And they're, you know, peer supporters come in and really work with them, and it's just a very, it's a home like environment and it's not punishing because these, you know, these illnesses are not something we should be punished for, you know? And it's very hard to heal in an environment where there's all these rules and a locked ward and all of that stuff, so.

Kevin Hines:
And the stressors that come along with that. And then you've got the, because there's always like a contingent of staff or people that work there that's really, they're good at their job, they love what they do and they're there to help you and they care about you. There's always the second half of that staff, like any other occupation in the world, that's dead into their job, just collecting a paycheck, hates what they do and is very negative and has a negative reinforcement toward you based on your mental struggle because they're tired of it. And so those two combinations are really hard to deal with, I've been in nine hospitalizations in the last 14 years, I've had both of those experiences. I can say that the good employees or people that work there, the staff, outweighed the bad, but it was also a very hard experience. I will also say, it's fair to say, that there are several new, you know, pretty new mental health facilities around the country that are working toward being kind, compassionate, loving, and respectful. There's one in North Carolina and I'm blanking on the name, I think it's Peter Hope or the Hope, Hope Center and you go there, and when an ambulance brings you in the, in the garage from a mandatory hospitalization, there's murals on the wall, beautiful murals on the wall, gorgeous views. You come inside, there's mood lighting with mood lamps that affect your brain waves and brain patterns, and your sleep function in a good way. There's a peer support specialist that meets your family and tells them what to expect from the services and the treatment you're going to go through. There's a peer specialist that meets with you and says, I've been in this hospital and now I'm going to help you get through your time here. And then, you know, the seclusion room is not about putting you in a straitjacket or tying your hands to a chair, it's a La-Z-Boy and you're watching flat screen fish going around and swimming in circles, and it's beautiful and you get to write, easy erase markers on the wall, what you're feeling and you'd think, people thought, well, they're going to write crazy, ridiculous, insane things on the wall. No, what people write on the wall with these markers is thank you for not putting me in shackles. Thank you for not treating me poorly. Thank you for giving me the freedom to sit here and calm myself down with breathing exercises. So there are those places popping up and doing great work, which is really fantastic, really good, good to hear. I have another question for you, Emily, and this one might be a tough one, so if you can't answer this, I totally understand. But I, I wanted to know you still live with any suicidal thoughts, and if so, what helps you get through it?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah, Kevin, that's a really important question. I don't live with them on the regular, for sure. You know, it's not something that is in my psyche on a regular basis, but I have had moments where I've been triggered, and during those moments, you know, if something difficult has happened in my life, the thought has crossed my mind. You know, those kind of thoughts. And you know, luckily today, Kevin, I have a life to look back on to say that my work is not done. You know, I just do not feel that my work is done and I do not want to, number one, let the people down that I support, and number two, I just really believe that those of us who do this work, we need to, well, we all need to be here. But those of us who do that, this work, it's our mission to be here to help others, you know? And so that is really what takes me through those thoughts. And you know, I also want to say that I have a very close relationship with my parents, as I've said a few times. And my father is someone that I can call up and say, Dad, I'm having some suicidal thoughts right now and we can dialogue about it in a way where he makes me laugh, he, we talk it through a little bit and he's not alarmed by it and just saying it out loud and normalizing it a little and having him say, you know, I think there's not a person on this Earth who hasn't had that type of thought at some point in their life, the normalization of it always helps me as well.

Kevin Hines:
Yeah, absolutely. Can you explain for our audience what first steps they can do in their community to help reduce discrimination surrounding mental illness? What can people around the world who may be listening do in their own communities to help further the cause?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah. So, Kevin, this is a hard decision to make, but I think the more people that share their story, the less we have stigma, the less we have this horrible idea that people with mental illness are the ones in the news doing awful things you know? It's not just people in the news doing awful things, it's people that you know, that I know, and I have to say, even if you don't want to share your story publicly, sharing it with a few close friends, I mean, I remember when I was in college and I was going through this, I would share it with people that I knew and loved. And inevitably one of them would say, thank you for sharing that because I'm going through the same thing, my uncle, my cousin, someone I know and love is going through it. So all of this really helps to normalize it and get rid of the stigma, and that's what I'm hoping for. We want this to just be a conversation, not a conversation that involves shame, you know?

Kevin Hines:
Take away the shame, take away the discrimination, move forward.

Emily Grossman:
Yeah!!

Kevin Hines:
What is an easy step or most or most simplified suggestion for workplaces to start implementing peer-to-peer support?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah. So, Kevin, just a clarifying question. Do you mean workplaces that are not, that are not mental health organizations?

Kevin Hines:
Yeah, I do.

Emily Grossman:
Yeah. Ok. So I really think that I've heard about a lot of organizations, particularly I know my organization where I work, Coordinated Behavioral Care, has made an open policy where people can really be open and honest about what they're going through, and there's no shame in it, you know, and they know they'll get supported. My organization really walks the walk in that way. I am not the only one in my organization who's out about their mental health journey, and everyone who I know who has done that is supported, and I think that's amazing. And I think that making a place safe for people to come out about it provides more of that peer-to-peer support, because once I come out about it, I know that three other people are going to come to me and say, you're out about this, how did that happen, you know? And so I think we need to foster these safe spaces, I've made my career about coming out about this so that hopefully the next generation won't have to worry so much if they have a mental health struggle and a mental health day, you know?

Kevin Hines:
Yeah.

Emily Grossman:
So.

Kevin Hines:
Wow, amazing.

Emily Grossman:
Yeah.

Kevin Hines:
I have one more question for you, and this question is for folks that might want to learn about this, are you on currently any medication, if you're comfortable talking about it?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah.

Kevin Hines:
You've done supportive therapy to maintain your wellness also?

Emily Grossman:
Yeah. Kevin, I'm really glad you asked. So yes, I see a therapist every week and I have since I was about, since I was diagnosed, if not even a little before. And I find therapy to be something that has helped me grow tremendously in my life. And then in terms of medication, yes, I do take medication and I know that even in our care community, there is some controversy around should we take meds should not take meds and it's such a personal choice. I mean, my medication has really helped me in so many ways, and I feel like at this point in my life, why rock the boat and try to go off of it when I'm doing so well, you know? And but, you know, medication, like I said, is such a personal choice, and I really invite people to dig deep and see what their true heart is saying about it, you know, and if your heart is saying you should go on medication, don't worry about what the rest of the world is thinking about you. And if your heart is saying, I want to try this without meds, I think that's a great choice, too. It's really a personal decision. But for me, I appreciate and I'm so grateful that I am on medication that really supports me.

Kevin Hines:
Emily, you've been a phenomenal guest today on the HINESIGHTS podcast.

Emily Grossman:
Aww, thank you!

Emily Grossman:
We are so appreciative of your time and your energy and your answers, and I just want to know so people can find out where to follow you, how to get involved with you, and where they can reach you, where do they go to learn more about Emily Grossman?

Emily Grossman:
Sure. The best way to find out about me is my website, which is EmilyGrossman.net. And then the best way to find out more about the organization that I work for, Coordinated Behavioral Care, is to go on their website, which is C as in cat, B as in boy and the word Care.org.

Kevin Hines:
Ok, well, we will definitely put that in the show notes. Emily, thank you from the bottom of my heart for being on the HINESIGHTS podcast, and I hope to talk to you soon. Take care!

Emily Grossman:
Oh, Kevin, thank you so much, it's been an honor and a pleasure!

Kevin Hines:
Margaret and I love sharing stories of people who have triumphed over incredible adversity. For more content and inspiration, go to KevinHinesStory.com or visit us on all social media at KevinHinesStory or on youtube.com/KevinHines.

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Margaret Hines